“It is not me nor my spouse that is broken. It is the relationship that is broken.” These wise words were posted in the forum not too long ago. A breath of fresh air and some great perspective – so much clearer than blaming your partner!
So often couples spend all of their energy engrossed in blaming each other for their marital issues. A typical combination would include an ADHD partner who thinks that the ‘real’ problem in the relationship is his partner’s angry attitude (“If you would just be nicer, everything would be fine…”) and a non-ADHD partner who thinks it’s all about the ADHD (“If you would just take care of managing your ADHD everything would be okay.”) The reality, as I’ve written before, is that they both contribute, and need to look to themselves to start fixing the problems.
The idea that the relationship that is broken, not the partners, provides an incredibly empowering platform for growth. When you stop blaming each other you leave room for cooperation. And when you are trying to fix a broken relationship, rather than a broken partner, you are likely to think about how you are interacting…for that is what relationships are all about. To do that well you must think not only of your partner’s behaviors and words, but monitor and improve your own, as well.
Suddenly there is room to develop empathy…to listen…to hear…and maybe even to work together to fix things.
And that is the beginning of something much, much more positive than mutual blame.
- MelissaOrlov's blog
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Comments
This assumes that both partners can be reasonable people...
This doesn't work when the ADHD partner also has a more serious mental illness (such as an Axis II PD). When dealing with those partners, all bets are off. They are too irrational and dysregulated.
The mentally-healthy spouse can make sense out of nonsense.
When my H dysregulates, ANYTHING will come out of his mouth. He's been dysregulated for 2 days now. He's called me every name in the book. Today he called me a slut and whore, and then he asked if he needed to get an AIDs test. lol Yes, I can laugh about this because it's so crazy. I've been married for 30 years. I've never even held hands with another man during this time.
On Tuesday, we will see our new therapist (second visit). When I show her the texts that H has sent me over the last two days, she'll freak out. H won't be able to deny, because there they will be in black and white.
I doubt that our new T is going to say: "you need to work together". She'll see that there is NO working together with someone who just isn't rational.
Dysregulated & irrational Adhd
You sound like you're describing my dysregulated ADHD father. And you're right - there's no reasoning with unreasonable people. Period.
New to the forum... Non ADD/ADHD husband looking for answers.
Just trying to understand and learn because currently I'm at a loss.
Just looking to learn and understand better today than I did yesterday and more tomorrow than I do today. Simple.
BIG ROCK, little rock ....I Wholeheartedly Concur Melissa
Not long ago, I read about this concept....the BIG ROCK and the little rock. The BIG ROCK in this case is your relationship, and the little rock is you. I definitely feel you are on to something here. I read something you wrote (somewhere else) referring to this too.....the idea of each person, contributing to the relationship ( the little rocks )....and the Priority and main focus ( all things considered) at any time or in any case being.....the BIG ROCK or your relationship. I really like this concept because it simplifies everything and really leaves little room for confusion here.
If you are really committed to making your relationship the most important thing in your life (the thing you value and treasure most)...it pretty much tells you at any given time, what you should be doing or what you should be focusing on in order to maintain it and keep it healthy....your responsibility to it and your commitment.
I think you could say this many different ways depending on which one suits you best, in order to keep this concept or idea straight in your head: serving or investing into your relationship.....like you would your career ? Saying....your not always going to like going to work every day, and some days are definitely better than others.....but as time goes on, you are building something that takes effort and some self sacrifice that will pay off in the BIG picture. It serves you and your partner equally at the same time but the goal is not you....the goal is your relationship.
I think you can even throw your kids into this picture by saying they are equally dependent on the BIG ROCK being healthy and solid to get their needs met too, but if you lose site of the relationship as being the priority in the big picture and focus too much on your kids or your own needs....it's too easy to overlook the most important one and that is contributing equally to the relationship itself because if it dies.....everyone loses including your kids.
But, kids or not.....it works both ways. It's too easy to get narrowly focused on yourself and what you want (or not getting) and completely lose site of the elephant in the room (the big rock or your relationship). It needs to be fed at the same time or else it will get sick and parish.....and then you'll have quite a problem to take care of sitting smack in the middle of your living room on a daily basis along with you and the rest of your family. Not a pretty word picture if you get my meaning?
But if you are so concerned about who is getting what or who did what to whom....your losing site of your relationship or the BIG ROCK. I think you need to be asking yourself instead of "how much did I get?" and more " how much did I put in?"
One of my closest childhood friend's mother said to me once " if you feel like you are giving more into your relationship than your wife/husband....you're probably giving just barely enough. This is a healthy sign." I think she was right and I would have to agree with her...but too the point she was making....."if it doesn't feel this way at least some of the time.... then something is wrong not the other way around." You're probably not doing enough or contributing your fair share into the relationship if this is true and are being a little stingy at that point. I catch myself doing this all the time!
I don't think we as humans suffer in general from an inability to think about ourselves and in getting our own personal needs met on a daily basis.....I think we do very well in that department without any outside help. lol
Melissa, I really appreciate your common sense approach to such a complicated and sometimes complex issues surrounding being in a relationship with US (ADHD'ers). My own thoughts here for one example....are a result of reading the things you have said and combining them with other things I have read about or have heard before but.....without putting them together like I just did in such a simple and easy way to understand it before I came here to this forum in the way I just did for you here. I guess this is my way of saying thank you and contributing to what you said (THE BIG ROCK), and showing you that I get it all at the same time. lol
FYI: I just laid this on my wife last night when she started to get wound up about something, and I watched how quickly the conversation changed from being focused on me and my ADHD and to the real thing that was causing her to be stressed. The stress was about the "thing"....not me in this case. And at that point, we both could talk about the best way to deal with this "thing" together, in order to lesson her stress and the effect it was having on her. It totally worked!!
I just wanted to thank you again, and to say to anyone else that I really think you have the right idea. I'm with you on this!
J
My spouse is not an acronym.
It's hard to work together
It's hard to work together when the ADHD person thinks they're fine. It's hard to work together when most-not all but most-parenting issues turn into me comforting HIM to reassure him he is not a bad parent. I quit doing that about two years ago and while that hasn't made our marriage any better, it has helped our kids. It's hard to work together when the other person's brain works so differently, when their priorities are so different from yours REGARDLESS of what they actually say. My DH tells me often when I ask why he did a certain thing a certain way that he is an adult and he can do whatever he wants. This is true, but how do you be married like that? Any questions I ask him about anything I am interrogating him, so I just don't ask any more. At one point his therapist had him hang two hooks in our closet (like coat hooks) and put three washers on one of them. I was allowed to ask three questions in a day and when I did I had to move a washer from one hook to the other to keep track. DH thought this was the greatest idea ever. Super shrink also wanted me to get a poster of different faces labeled with different emotions (they sell these in social-emotional teacher catalogs for kids) so I could ask DH how he was feeling before I talked to him about anything. Again--really? He's an adult for gods sake. Grow up. How is the non-ADHD person supposed to treat the ADHD person like an equal when/if they don't act like one? It's hard to work together when the ADHD person only thinks about making themselves feel good and look good at any given moment, when the ADHD person will lie to avoid anything uncomfortable for them. It's hard to work together when the ADHD person offers odd explanations for their behavior and expects you to participate in the nonsense, to believe them. For example, my DH claims he can't answer his iPhone when it is charging in the car. Really? My basic Samsung allows one to do everything while it's plugged in, how is it possible that the newest incarnation of iPhone doesn't do that? How do you argue that? So you give up, knowing they are full of sh** and you are the only one who knows it and a little more of the respect goes away. Nobody is broken, it's just darn near impossible to find a point of convergence when one of the brains involved is wired so differently from the way most adults think and conduct themselves.
Psychological Independence
I agree that your therapist's approach wasn't too helpful at changing the dynamic in the relationship to be equal partners, though what the therapist may have been doing was trying to set more obvious boundaries between you. Often, without realizing it, non-ADHD partners walk all over their ADHD partner's right to be a differentiated (and perhaps hard-to-understand) individual. The cell phone conversation is a good example. You are angry that your partner doesn't heed your advice and, instead, clings to the concept that he can't answer his phone while it is charging. Okay. So what? You might answer "but I want him to answer when I call!" and I would say that choosing whether or not to answer a phone is completely, totally the responsibility of the person answering. My husband and I used to have this argument (and I am the NON spouse here.) He would call and expect me to answer, but sometimes it wasn't convenient. No matter, he got angry. Too bad! We finally set up a code - life threatening emergency and he can text me "911" or call multiple times. Other than that, I get to run my own life, (including whether or not I answer the phone) thank you very much! He has come to terms with this concept and we are both now better about respecting these boundaries.
Questions...my husband used to feel a great deal of pressue when I was peppering him all the time with questions. These questions were for ME - to soothe my own anxiety - not for him. As I learned that asking the most important questions only provided me with a FAR better outcome, my life improved. This is probalby what your therapist was trying to do. When I asked fewer questions, my husband came to understand that these questions were actually important, and paid more attention in answering them. He also felt less attacked by me. Furthermore, having to sort through it all helped me toss aside those questions that were really about my stepping over his boundaries (things like "when will X be done?" and "why hasn't y happened yet?" aren't actually all that useful most of the time. When I do ask those sorts of questions now, I usually say something like "I'm not trying to change what you are doing, only trying to be more informed..." before I ask the question. So he knows I'm not trying to direct (his) traffic.
My observation is that usually the interactions between partners - and particularly the pursuit/retreat types of interactions that I suspect are really at the core of what you are describing here - are always the result of both people's contributions. To be an 'adult' as you say, your husband must be an independent person living as himself. If you are encroaching on that by judging him he is likely to rebel, making him seem LESS adult-like to you (and likely to others, as well.) Adults with ADHD whose way of thinking is respected, regardless of how different it is from your own, tend to step up to the plate (eventually) and start to work things out. They are at their worst when they feel under attack - emotional, rebellious, unwilling to engage positively ("why bother? I can't gain anything?")
Hopefully this gives you something to think about...
Melissa, again thanks and a question
You have come to such a rational, mature adult way of relating to your husband. Thanks for sharing your words with us and showing what it sounds like to be in acceptance, control, surrender, and rational.
How does a person cope with a marriage that includes lies? I know I should have confronted him more about the lying when we were first married, but I didn't. I thought giving him the benefit of the doubt and showing him I believed in him when we were young was a way to boost his ego. It boosted his ego and made me lose respect for myself. H was a traveling salesman from the start. Very independent. I let him be the way he was. It was not a satisfying way to live from my point of view.
How do I gain my self respect back and how does a spouse hold constant vigil to not tolerate lies?
Dealing with lies
This is such a good question that I am going to write a blog post about it in the next day or two, and when it is complete, will link to it from here. (added later) Here's the link to the first one...
dvance and the phone
Dvance, the thing that FEELS so bad to US (and we get to have feelings and emotions too) is that the response to our questions are lies...coverups, rather than truths or efforts at intimacy and cooperation. He answer to your question "Why don't you answer the phone when you are in your car?" could have been an acceptable, "Sometimes I am not available." or "I answer when I can." But not "I can't answer it when it is charging." That sounds guilty and seems to put the blame on someone/something else for the reason he "can't" answer the phone. Changing your question to offense/defense maneuvers.
That is either one of three things. (And I get these outrageous responses too.) He either is really stupid to think that he can't answer the phone while it is charging, he thinks you are clueless and that he can "get away" with this "coverup" that you will believe this OR he is so in the habit of lying that this just spills out of his mouth without thought of a union of trust.
H tells me that he must buy his gas from this certain gas station $5 each time and must go to the gas station every day to put in that $5 because the gas is heavy and with all the equipment he has in the car, his car would drag on the ground if he filled the tank and he would'nt get good gas milage because of the weight of the gas (then implies that I am so stupid that I don't know about this). I went to Click and Clack's site and someone had asked if the weight of gas contributed to either dragging or gas milage...absolutely not. Does H really believe that or does H have something going on at the gas station where he wants to hang out there? H says that his car gets such good gas milage that he can drive his big old car for 120 miles on $5 gas! What?
How does this relate to ADD? Probably not at all. It, to me is a character thing. Lying and not respecting us.
Your counselor seems to want to make you your husband's mommy (kindergarten teacher). Sounds like she had an educational psychology degree. (A degree for school psychologists). This is not going to help you or your H to be equal contributors to a happy adult union.
Lies and ADHD
Describes us completely but now I am down so deep I
I no longer want to exist. If I could just suddenly disappear, I even wish I could just die suddenly, it would just be better.
we have been struggling for a while. Husband was diagnosed in 2009 at the age of 35. After losing yet another job and me finding out about his sex addiction, which also followed me delivering a stillborn baby girl. Yep, that year sucked.
He has needs my support needed me to be patient, needed me to be understanding, needed me to do more around our home while he worked on issues, while I was also the sole bread winner.
Fast forward to now, following years of an increasingly more difficult relationship and 2 more job losses. If only I was nicer to him, was more intimate, spoke to him without a tone, did not ask him to contribute, did not follow up on things etc... He doesn't go to bed / exercise / go to therapy / eat well / contribute because of everything I do to him and don't do for him. He thinks I have an agenda when I speak to him, trying to catch him in something when I ask a question, it doesn't end.
My level of stress had gotten so bad over the last 2 years that I have missed work because I could not stop crying or was just shaking, thought I would have a heart attack or stroke, was PLEADING for help. He was trying he said. Don't get involved in my ADHD treatment, it's all up to me he said. If only you did more and were more l I got to me I would be able to do it he said. If you are stressed it's all your own fault for stressing he said.
yes, I would get angry. After years of patience, I had no more left in me.
i kept feeling worse and worse and then 1 night this past April I woke up in emergency after having a seizure. He was ok for few days then it started again. My stress I my own fault, he's trying. Then another seizure that time at work. After working non stop since I was in University, except for maternity leave for our now 11 year old, I was put on sick leave. I am getting support? Nope. Stress is my main seizure trigger but, as he says, that's all on me. Oh and since I am home I can do more.
Last night was the worst. Big fight. I need help and support. I can't function. My stress level is too high. He can't function because I am so angry, I need to be nicer to him etc...Same old. Add to that now that he is really hurt and upset a "point of no return" he called it that dare say that he is the cause of my stress that caused my seizures.
I am now at point where I just want to disappear. The only reason I am still here is my precious child.
You need to get out now
You need to find a way to change your environment for at least a few weeks. Do you have family or friends to stay with? Can your husband stay with a buddy/family for a few weeks?
I am not saying you have to file for divorce--or even think about divorcing--or kick anyone out. You DO need to take care of your physical and mental health for the sake of your child. You are exhausted and dangerously depressed.
I'm worried about you. Please tell me you can be away from your husband for a few weeks.
Can't go anywhere
We are away from our families, nobody around us. Besides I have shared none of this with them, my parents are worried enough about my health issues.
i have many friends but none of them know either. Everybody has issues.
My parents are here this weekend, I will pretend as I usually do although it's becoming harder. I just blame my health and go to my room if I need a time out.
I am doing everything I need to do as told by my doctors, even more than that if there is any chance something will help. I also see a counsellor through my work's EAP to guide me through a gradual return to work. My stress level needs to be managed. She advised that I talk to my husband about meeting with him and his therapist to discuss strategies for him to be able to help me. That maybe his therapist needs to hear from me. He refuses to even discuss it, saying that his treatment has nothing to do with me, I have no right to get involved. Was that so wrong to ask?
Tamping down the questioning
In my experience, asking fewer questions resulted in almost zero communication. He did not volunteer any essential information and the lack of badgering on my part did not prompt my father to come to understand that my questions were important. Not with me, or my mother or with anybody really. I'm so so sad thinking about it now.
Questions and Lying
My wife and I just went over this in with our T as of yesterday, so I thought I would take a moment and add a few things to this discussion. As far as the questioning goes....there comes time after a while that the person of the other side of the questions begins to see a pattern developing......before the question, the question, the response and then the end result. It doesn't take too many negative experiences in this cause and effect change of event before the person receiving the questions begins to project the future based on the past and start to rethink the answers that they give. And Melissa is right....after a while with too many questions coming at you all the time...pretty soon they all get lumped together into one big negative pooh pile regardless. Discerning one from the other in importance or priority becomes more of matter of "which one will I suffer from the most" and start arranging them in that order as a means to sort them all out. This has nothing to do with the topic or the real importance of the questions.
What this boils down to is this. When I start noticing myself avoiding the answer that I actually know or do not know.....I apply something that my T has taught me a long time ago to help me understand this kind situation better. He simply said..."are you going away from something...or are you going towards it." When I am avoiding the answer....it's usually the case that I don't want the fall out from what I know that has transpired in all the times previously. This is definitely going away behavior. One of the easiest ways to get around that is to lie or just make something up that the other person wants to hear (telling them what they want to hear even when I know it's not the truth). There....that was easy in the moment...at least I avoided one negative interaction and I can just deal with it later if it's one I get called out on. If I can manage to follow through or find a way around it in the mean time.....then it served me to do this. If not and I get called on it later.....I am no worse off as I would have been in the first place and the probability in that this will reduce the amount of negative reactions down to a much smaller percentage. Based on this experience....it's an easy one to choose and one that certainly works in reducing the overall negative moments and confrontations. Its avoiding something that you know from experience is not going to serve you well to engage in the truth....that's the lesson this teaches you over time.
As an alternative.....you can say nothing. As ChrisChris mentioned with her father.....this is also not a very good solution but it serves the same purpose....avoiding something that you know from experience is not going to serve you well in the end and you will almost certainly come out feeling worse than you did only a short time before.
What I brought up in our T's office (with the intention of bringing this very topic up ) was saying that I no longer give an answer that I can not absolutely back up or follow through on and if this is the case....I only have one of two possible answers that I am willing to give now........"NO"...or "I don't know" if that is really the truth. "I don't know can be another way of avoiding the question so I do something along the lines of what Melissa said by giving a short but real reason of why I don't know. This usually takes the form of saying that I simply don't have any way of answering since "I can't predict" or "I don't have enough information to give you the answer you are looking for" even when I might have enough to give and honest questimation which is what I would normally do in the past as a courtesy in an effort to respond as "best I can." After enough times of "your actions don't match up with your words" thrown back into your face....one would catch on after a while that this is clearly not the right answer to give no matter what the question is. "No" and "I don't know" is the best defense against the repercussions of actually answering these questions as "best you can." Not any more!!
And as our T also said in the moment when I was telling him this.."can you think of why she keeps asking you these questions?" (many times, the same question that has already been answered more than once previously. This was the key point he was trying to make and Melissa already answered this in this post....to relieve anxiety. I pretty much figured this out a long time ago and is why I decided to say "I don't know" instead.
On one hand.....If I'm responsible for my wife's anxiety....this is surely going to bite me in the butt anytime my words aren't EXACTLY what they were heard or perceived as being ie: "you said X which alleviated my anxiety....if you don't follow through exactly as I need it to be so my anxiety will not return in this matter....there will be consequences to pay." That's my projection in my own contribution into the dynamic and it comes from every previous time that this dynamic ended up in the same place each time.
This is exactly what and why my wife and I have been in this dynamic in the past. As our T explained..."if there are consequences to becoming vulnerable....then being vulnerable is something to avoid after a while. It's just what people do in this situation. That includes lying to avoid the consequences as well...it isn't that hard to figure out here."
His suggestion to us and one we have already begun to do....."treat each other like friends and quit volunteering for this dynamic by doing what you did in the past." He didn't call me out on the "I don't know" or "NO" part if it really is the truth exactly....but he did remind both of us that when we see the other person start going down that road....it means either person is feeling threatened in some way and to look past the specifics or facts and see the person behind it and why they are doing it. In our case...he was saying this to both of us not just one or the other.
The bottom line here is to stay away from the dynamic itself....that's where all the problem exist including but not limited to ...the lies. By focusing on the other persons feelings and vulnerability instead...you are taking this aspect into consideration instead and showing respect in a friendly caring way at the same time.
This was the answer I was looking for yesterday in how to respond to these questions better? Since he did this in front of my wife at the same time...he pretty much let the cat out of the bag so to speak which is now just a matter of following through with this better including saying "I don't know" and standing on it if it really is the truth:)
J
I can understand how simple questions can appear as more
Speaking as the non ADHD spouse this is a big source of frustration in our marriage.
We have had this discussion many, many times. When I ask a question, that's all it is. I am ok with a "no" or a "I don't know" or a "yes". Preferably, if it involves something that needed taken care of but wasn't for instance, there would be some suggestion to get it done or at least discuss how to get there.
Lying about things just to make it go away in the present is bad enough as the truth usually comes to light later.
What really drives me up the walls is the refusal to answer with the reason being that I must have an agenda for asking or I am trying to trap him or I am just trying to prove he's useless. This has been going on for a decade and for that decade I have been working really hard at being careful how I ask and even making clear that it's just a question.
Because when I ask when his appointment is because it's 99% of the time early morning meaning I have to arrange my schedule to take care of our child in getting to school. It's not because I'm checking up on him.
so when he won't answer because he gets defensive then I have to ask again explaining why I need to knows but he stills feels attacked and I get exasperated and there you have it. Another argument.
So the alternative is not to ask and let him deal with it. Tried that. Either he's in a panic and gets angry with me for not having my work schedule adjusted (because I should have checked with him!) or he misses his appointment and is angry at me for losing the money for a no show.
Why is it so complicated? When is your appointment? It's on x date, or I don't have one yet, or let me check. Ok, thanks. Done.
I am trying really hard here not to seem like I am nagging or mothering. We have a family and a household to run and when I ask a question it is just a question because I want to know. Nothing else.
i hate my life. Everything that is wrong in our marriage is because of me. "Because you..." are words much too common in his vocabulary.
What is his most recent one? He's not happy in our marriage because I cry all the time and he can't support me or help me because I am not loving enough to him.
Yep....This is What's Happening From What you Said..
What really drives me up the walls is the refusal to answer with the reason being that I must have an agenda for asking or I am trying to trap him or I am just trying to prove he's useless. This has been going on for a decade and for that decade I have been working really hard at being careful how I ask and even making clear that it's just a question...
This is his contribution in the form or projection. It's the same one I just described.....having an "agenda" or "intention" outside of what you are really asking and trying to predict the outcome based on the past from that premise. If he is in this mind set as you say for over a decade.....it's not something that is going to disappear overnight to say the least. The blaming ...."Because you" is just more denial and defense. The rest of the things you mentioned are all just rationalizations that go along with it. In reality...it really is all just BS but it is all tied together by one thing.....the dynamic itself.
I really do believe you when you say it doesn't matter to you what the answer is....I'm the same way. For him however....the answer and the question does take a completely different meaning and it's all in context to the past not the present. I think that's one way to see this for what it is. If you think about taking the past completely out of the picture for a minute.....that would be wonderful and would solve the problem here.
With my wife.....what has worked better than most anything is to ignore here self filling prophesies and catastrophic thinking and try and bring her to the moment and not bring up the past at all despite all her innuendo, accusations and digging up past references as her justifications for doing this. If I can just focus on the NOW and not go there with here....it has served to keep me from responding to her as IF she has something up her sleeve even when I can see she clearly does at times. What she does is to say she means one thing when she really means something else. I've learned to read this better and I try and go directly to what I have learned from the past is the source of why she "asks"?
What's complicated is this dynamic and the tape loop that's playing in his head that's telling him what he can expect from you and other people. That's where the paranoia, false accusation and projection are coming from and it's all based on his entire past experiences whether he realizes this or not.
I'm not a therapist so I can't tell you exactly what you should do...but it doesn't sound like you will get too far with your H as long as he is holding onto this position he has with you. As you said....it's been over a decade and without asking......it was probably there to some degree long before you met him? This is what you need to focus on in getting him out of this way of thinking and the best place to start is to try and do things or don't make him defensive and stay away from those things as much as possible. This may take some doing and you may have to swallow some pride at first in the mean time but if it works and you see him becoming more open with you and less defensive at the very least....you will know what ever you are doing or not doing is working and you should keep it up as long as you can find it in yourself to do it.
With my wife....it took a while of me doing this before I started to see the results. In the mean time......just try and skip over the BS and take it with a grain of salt for what it is and try not to let it hurt you. I think that's the value of seeing the dynamic itself as the problem and being able to recognizing it in order to stay away from it yourself whith won't feel so personal to you as a way to do this. Just one possibility here?
Best advise...forget the past and focus on the "here" and "now".
J
I am certain it's been there longer,
Maybe it was not as evident in our relationship until about 10 years ago. We have been together for over 15 years. Why about 10 years only? My guess is it has to do with having a child 11 years ago. That certainly changed our life for the better but evidently would also change the dynamics between us as well as adding additional strains with responsabilities. planning etc...He was diagnosed in 2009 and that's when he (and I) understood a lot more. Granted even though it explained a lot, he also went through anger (at his parents mostly for not having him diagnosed as a child) and then denial.
Yes, I would nag and push. It's human nature I suppose (combined with the fact that I am just a bit of a type A on organization and planning. Terrible combination in a sense but (i think) somewhat of a blessing that I can be the ying to his yang. We did Melissa's course together and made some changes. I thought it was positive for a while.
I really don't know what else I can do. It seems to be getting worse and worse. As I said, it's not actual the answer to a question that bothers me. It's the response. Just like when he was diagnosed and his therapist advised to start taking more responsabilities to contribute in the household but take on 1 at at time and commit to it and build from there. I did not (and still do not) have an issue with taking on more. I have an issue with the attitude. I don't need praises or a pat on the back. A thank you once in a while is appreciated. What I don't want is complaining or taking advantage. Compalining that the laundry is not how he wants it or the dinner is not what he wanted or going to bed in the wee hours because he's playing video games but tha's ok he can sleep in since I make breakfast and lunches and get our daughter ready by myself. His idea of helping is suggesting different ways for ME to do things. And it was like that even when he was unemployed.
I feel that right now his behaviour is worse than before his diagnosis. He has not come to bed before 4am on all but a handful of nights since early September. Lack of sleep certainly doesn't help. He has missed (forgotten) to go to his last appointment this summer. His memory on general things is horrible (except if it's for him to recall how I have wronged him then his memory is stellar). Has not booked other appointments. I think his medication is not working and in fact causing more issues but I cannot talk to him about it. If I DARE bring up his ADHD or his treatment he flies off.
Now I am sick. I have been home on disability since early July, just starting a gradual return but I need to rest. I am ASKING for help now and he can't. Why? Because I am not loving and nice enough to him.
I am not sure I understand what you are saying? the best place to start is to try and do things or don't make him defensive and stay away from those things as much as possible. You mean not ask questions? I just do things myself? This is not about pride at all. This is about me being desperate for some sort of help. Anything. If I can't ask and I can't do it myself, what can I do?
My counsellor has proposed that I talk to him calmly about meeting with his therapist with him to give some insight on what is going on. The mere fact of me asking for a time that would work for him to discuss how we could work on our issues got him angry. Forget about that.
You Mentioned the Magic Word, Anger
It took me a long time to figure out exactly what I was angry at. You mentioned he was angry with his parents for not having him diagnosed. Here's what I remembered in my own situation. I too was really angry at my parents for a while for various reasons. No one mentioned ADHD when I was young so I didn't feel like that was so much of an issue. Regardless.....it's not what he is really angry at even though this is what he says it is I think. Getting right too it.....when you start to realize just how serious these things are and also realize how helpless and daunting you feel in doing anything about it....it's really easy to start blaming everyone else for what is wrong with you. The gravity of it all starts to become a bit too much to take all at once and your counselors advise was pretty good I think....start with just one thing at a time and go from there. That's where the success starts to happen a little bit at a time. It comes and goes and sometimes you fail and start feeling hopeless but that's why it's so important to have some success along the way to keep you from back sliding too much.
If I read what you are saying correctly....it's not about not asking or doing everything yourself or even your pride. If you think about what he might be really angry at....it just having to go through this and simply having ADHD in the first place......that's really all it is and there is no one to blame or be angry at even if that's what he thinks or it feels like to him ( and yes...he's wrong! just don't tell him that right now! lol )
I think if you can see past the things he actually says and not put too much weight there ( and the lies and the BS ) and see that's he struggling to just accept the challenges he has in front of him and get use to that without having to blame something or someone in the process.....that's the lens I would use to see him through and work what I say towards getting him to see that too. A good way not to make him defensive is with positive reinforcement and encouragement despite his own negativity. This is the hard part for you. Stay away from negative reinforcement like the plague!! That's one way to not make him defensive.
But......if you are dealing with someone who is just sour grapes and bound and determined to be bitter and angry I don't know what else a person can do once they have tried to do everything else. With my wife.....I really did have to put my foot down with her and say enough is enough.....time to stop wallowing and blaming me for what is wrong with you.
Since then....she really has realized better where is anger was coming from which had nothing to do with me. For her, it really was aimed at her mother and rotten childhood she had. I would agree with her there but at some point in time....you have to get over it. Once she began to see where her anger was coming from inside her, she did stop blaming me and getting angry when I didn't somehow know exactly what she needed to "fix" the problem. The problem was....there was nothing to fix in the first place....only, to stop being angry and just accept what is and then let go of the past. It sounds easy but it really isn't. It's a process and it takes time. All you can do is not be his punching bag and not stand for unacceptable misplace anger that is directed at you when it really has nothing to do with you and it never did. You can be resentful about this or you can just let that slide.
It's his pride that is at stake here not yours and it's a big pill to swallow all at once. Telling him you understand this and can see this happening even if he can't is a good place to start I think while at the same time....telling him "to pick someone else to misplace or misdirect all that anger on instead of me!" If you can do this in a joking manner and say it without your own attitude behind it....it might pull him more towards your attitude and away from his.
Having said that....I do understand how hard this is to do especially the attitude thing. That was nearly putting me over the edge and I was completely saturated with it when my wife was in full "self pity" mode. It's victim mentality at the very least and not very attractive or fun to be around for sure. Yikes! He sounds like he is definitely going from something instead of going towards something......what you don't want to do is to be going away from him at the same time if you can follow what I am saying? If he see's that you're to blame right now for his unhappiness.....going away from him will be exactly what he expects and only confirm his own self fullfillling prophecy and that tape loop that's running in his head that saying this is what you will do. Surprise him and don't do that and see what happens?
J
PS...you can start by telling him what you love about him and that you can accept him for who he is.....that's not an excuse for his bad behavior though, it's just giving him the very reason not to be angry and to accept himself and see himself differently ( differentiating who he is as a person from his behaviors themselves). Once you see that this is true and believe it yourself (coming from this side of things) then the behaviors look pretty bad and not you. That's when th guilt stops making you angry.....it motivates you to be better. That's what guilt is suppose to do......it not there to condemn you to eternal Hell! lol Positive feedback like this works wonders!
Thanks for the advice
There is a lot of it to take in, unfortunately I am physically and mentally unable to take on more. So all I can do is let go of things.
First thing I did is refuse to take on the blame for his behaviour. "I'm not getting up because you were not nice to me so I didn't go to bed". Nope. That was your choice. "I didn't take care of this bill/appointment/etc.. because you didn't remind me". Your responsability. You got angry because I was reminding you of things because it's mothering (even though I thought I was only doing it to help). You told me to stop. So I told you I would and I did.
That has ended a lot of arguments because I just don't get into it. I refuse to accept blame and I shut it down.
Arguments are still escalating. Again, because I ask questions about things that we supposed to/he promised would be done. Not the right time to ask, he's watching TV. Why do I ask him "that way" (?). I need to be nicer, ask about his day, ask about how he's doing, not ask about tasks. He just got home from work he's relaxing.
Except that he forgets that while he slept in that morning I made lunches and cleaned up, got our child ready for school. He forgets that he left for work a few hours after I did in the morning and that is why he said he would do these tasks then, he has time he said. He forgets that he said he would do these tasks in the morning because he was watching TV the night before and forgot. And all the other days before that were the same. He doesn't realize that he is arguing about wanting to relax when he get home from work, while eating the dinner I made as soon as I got home from work and doesn't realize that I have not had a chance to relax yet either.
He actually pointed out to me how I had not put away my own clean clothes yet. They are still in the laundry basket in our room. Why should he pick his up off the floor? He doesn't realize that my own stuff comes last. Our child's clothes are washed and put away. Clean sheets, towels etc.. magically appear in the linen closet? Bills just pay themselves? School forms just complete themselves? Appointments just book themselves? I get up to cans to pick up, stuff just left out. Non stop picking up, tidying up. Most of what I do he doesn't see and doesn't realize. It's just done. Not my stuff though. I run out of time and I frankly just really don't care about my stuff anymore. After his comment about my clothes, I put most of them in bags and am giving them away. I don't have time for so much stuff. What's his next excuse going to be?
**Rant over**
I hate my life.
Good verbal response to his anger
Thanks J, I think this might be a line for all of us to have in our repertoire. "It's time to stop wallowing and blaming me for what is wrong with you."
I don't care what the fallout is, this is going to start to be a sentence that is heard around here.
Another thing that needs to stop
Is telling the other what to do. My ADHD spouse does not want me to nag or mother him by telling what to or how to do things.I get that and I try not to. Why is it acceptable for him to tell ME what to do? "You need to change how you talk to me" "You need to be nicer to me" "Why are you taking care of this that way, do it this way instead". Etc...
Why does it have to be double standards? When I tell him how I feel, I am criticizing him, I am making him feel bad, I am telling him what he does wrong - NO! I am telling you how I feel! Yet he tells me what I do wrong to him, what I need to do different, what I need to change what I need to do t ... Not how he FEELS.
STOP TELLING ME WHAT TO DO!! Adults should not be telling other adults what to do. Response to that? I am just trying to help you.