I would like to know why people afflicted with ADHD are sometimes averse to therapy. I am at my wits end with my fiance and would absolutely try a last ditch effort to save our relationship as we have been together 8 years and engaged for 3. But he refuses to go to therapy as he says he has done "many cognitive therapy sessions" in the past. He lives in an unfinished house and quite possibly a hoarding situation as well and will not take my advice to seek new help, possibly new techniques afforded to those that suffer with ADHD. I know there are other factors involved(porn, very low self esteem, no friends, distant from family and a very bad former break up) that all have never been dealt with. Is it too much for me to ask? Is the reason for not wanting therapy is because they are so plagued by pain and disappointment that they cannot bear any more criticism(positive) or pain? Am I at a total wishful thinking point and wasting my time to try and salvage this relationship? Or should I cut my losses? So very sad all this!!
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Ask the Therapist
"Is the reason for not wanting therapy is because they are so plagued by pain and disappointment that they cannot bear any more criticism (positive) or pain?"
I'm not a therapist, but I have ADHD. I was criticized relentlessly and abused by a parent who wouldn't quit. I was traumatized to the point of developing a condition including anxiety and depression beginning at an early age. I was a neurotic mess inside.
But, I looked forward to therapy. I was overjoyed to find out I had ADHD ( at first ) and looked forward to finding out all I could know so I could do something about it. I finally had the answers I was looking for and was a willing participant.
When my ex-wife and I finally found a therapist that we both agreed on ( her choice ...she found him ).....
We walked in and sat down and he asked: "who wants to go first? " My ex spoke up and started in with a list of complaints about me and he stopped her after a while and asked " yes, but what about you? "
"What about me?" she said ( or close to it? )
And he started asking her a bunch of questions about her, and what her part in this "relationship "was?
This didn't appear to sit well with her and she became very quiet.
And I remember thinking to myself..."ooh...I think I like this guy."
Fast forward 5 or 6 years. We got divorced, and many of the things you listed about the unfinished house, hoarding, etc...existed with me. I wasn't diagnosed yet, but that was coming shortly.
For the vast majority of our sessions, I was asking questions and doing the things he would say ( for the most part ) and she sat quietly most of the time and just listened...like she was afraid to say anything in fear of him asking more questions about her.
I've told this story before, but I might as well tell it again. He kept calling her, " a person, who's refuses to take responsibility . I finally stopped him and asked " what is a person who refuses to take responsibility??"
He replied: " a victim "
But not exactly how I thought. He said : " somewhere, a long time ago, probably going to school as a little girl" she found out that pretending to be sick, worked, so she didn't have to go to school. And then she found other ways, that being a victim ( sick ) or whatever...worked for her, so she could get what she wanted." Playing the victim in other words, allowed her a free pass...when ever she needed it, and avoided taking responsibility for anything. And it worked like a charm for her, everytime.
I don't know if she had ADHD? Maybe, but I don't think so. But I believe my therapist when he told me this ( after the fact ) which is when I started learning about ADHD when he first diagnosed me.
Actually, I told him I thought I had it...and he told me he already mentioned it.
"Really, you did?"
He explained : " you had other things on your mind...it probably went in one ear and out the other."
Guilty as charged
Just be careful what you ask for....as my ex found out, it wasn' exactly what she thought it was going to be.
Thank you for your reply.
Thank you for your reply. Both you and your ex wife suffer with ADHD? Do you think she avoided responsibilities due to her ADHD? Was there an equal effort in trying to save your marriage through the therapy? What ended your marriage? Do you feel that a non ADHD partner should take more responsibility in a relationship?
I Don't Think She Had ADHD
but it's possible. My therapist indicated that she might have a personality disorder, without actually saying so ( because he couldn't directly ) but it was implied. My best guess is, that was her issue not ADHD.
What I'm suggesting, based on what he was telling me was: her victim mentality was the biggest problem in our relationship, more than any other specific thing. That might be a symptom of the bigger issue ( personality disorder ) but, I'm not an expert on that. All I know is, people can still have strong traits from learned behavior that mimic other things. As I see it, and knowing her mother, her mother... had a strong tendency towards victim mentality so I assume, she learned it from her without saying she had a disorder of any kind. I think her mom enabled her, and help foster the victim mind set in her.
So no, I don't think she avoided responsibility because of ADHD or possibly ( any other mental health issue she was born with ) I think she learned it was a sussecful strategy to avoid taking responsibility and remain a victim because the advatantages it had to offer her. It allowed her not to grow and stay in a child like state where others had to take care of her. It also allowed her to take power and control from manipulative tactics...the get things she wanted, through sex and other means. She actually had a very pleasant personality, and was nice to be around. Very low conflict...easy to be with. She really didn't pose any other problems except: she had a shopping addiction, and was financially irresponsible. I also believe, she felt entitled to spend as much money as she liked ( whenever she wanted ) with no repercussions what so ever. She just expected me to pay for everything...while at the same time....spending my share, before I even got my paycheck. It was a very dishonest and irresponsible way of seeing things. She lived in her own magical thinking world of being a princess and having everyone take care of her. Maybe Queen perhaps. It was a very unrealistic, and fantasy way of viewing the world where, it seemed, the world revolved around her, not the other way around.
I made a post recently about this very thing. The secrets of the Universe and Football. The secret is: adapting to the world around you....not trying to make the world adapt around you. In my football example. My favorite college team won the championship this years in their division and went undefeated....13-0. Because they were able to successfull adapt to each differen team better than anyone else. Taking on each team differently, and effectively exploiting their strengths to each team individually....not the other way around.
I believe, this is what ended our marriage and no, the effort was mostly mine in respect to the financial issue. I made it....she spent it....indiscriminately. The sex was great...while it lasted. And the power was she gained from manipulative tactics. As my therapist explained...."topping from the bottom". The submissive or victim in this scenario...was actually in control, by using underhanded or covert methods to get her needs met. Her need was, to be treated like a princess...in this fantasy inside her head.
So in the big three: money, sex, and power. She used sex...to gain power and money In this transactional way of doing things. And she was also a very likeable and pleasant person to be around. She was quiet and reserved and was very good company....but...she was a terrible partner ( terrible!! ) with some really snakey and underhanded ways or getting her needs met. ( manipulative )...but did it in a way that went somewhat ( if not completely ) undetected. I'd say, she was very good actress who played her parts very well. She also cheated multiple times so she really couldn't be trusted there but....I didn't find out until after we were divorced ...but the hand writing was on the wall.
I don't think any of this is ADHD behavior honestly ( in women ) so I'd have to defer to what my therapist said. Back to: chronic victim mentality ( victim mind set ) in a way...to get things she needed with the least amount of effort....the path of least resistance.
So in a nutshell...all of this...was her responsibility.....and she refused to take any responsibility for any of it what so ever. As my therapist called her: "a person who refuses to take responsibility."
The problem was....he said he "tried" to move her out of this way of being and thinking and way of doing things. To take more responsibility for ( herself and her own actions )....and stop blaming the rest of the world ( she was very black and white ) ....everyone else ( including me ) for everything about her life she was unhappy with. Including ( our marriage ).
I asked her once: " Why can't you be happy with what you have? "
She replied: " I want more."
But, never did anything to make that happen. She somehow, wanted it to just come to her somehow? Like in the movie Office Space: " it becomes ours" LOL
So, none of that is in the description of ADHD even for women. She might have had ADHD and other issued too, but the ADHD was secondary ( as a problem ) to her victim mind set. And that, as my therapist explained...probably started as a little girl...and continued on since then. So when she found herself trying to change....that path of least resistance was just too hard not to go back to. She tried, but found, it was just too much work and effort...and went back to what she knew...and the means that worked best ( easiest ) for her.
Me, the guy with ADHD, didn't have those issues. I found a different way to make it work, but it was the path that took the most effort and hard work. I had things I wanted too...but the path to get there was not easy at all. I guess, I wanted those things more....than the effort it took to get there. And to get there, the victim mind set wasn't going to work.
I have a good story to tell, I'll have to come back to. It's a perfect example....from my SO's daughter in law. This will actually make perfect sense...once I tell it.
But I have to go to work now! Lol
FYI: I started work at age 15....and am 67 now. I've never been fired or lost a job. One, I had for 24 years with one employer. And I have ADHD.
Was this because of ADHD ? I don't think so.
To read part of your story is
To read part of your story is heartbreaking. I always find it hard to read how much the human spirit can endure. But you sound like you came out on the other side all the better. I wonder why we hold on with a death grip to something we think is going to get better but never does. We cling to a hope that our partner will not only realize they pain they inflict on their partner but also on themselves. But sadly, we cannot control their will nor their logic. And what is most frustrating is they have their own "logic" and therefore never understand true logic even if it is coming from a doctor/therapist. Question for you.... did you ever feel, when you started dating, that you were flawed so that when you were seeking a partner that you found yourself dating someone with a myriad of problems so that you wouldn't feel guilt about your own problems? I guess it's an acceptance issue.
This is a very good question Dottie
Taking myself back in time, I think acceptance had a big role to play. To put this into perspective, at the time, not only did I not know I had ADHD, I had no concept of what it was? Not only that, I has no concept of disorders or any mental health issues and considered myself "normal", just like everyone else. How I saw myself, was how I saw myself which was: some good, some bad, a list of my accomplishments ( good ), and handful of not so great attributes ( flaws ), and a few pretty bad acts or actions ( bad ) that I was ashamed of. All in all, the good outweighed the bad ...so for the most part....I was okay. But, there were still those bad parts...that I had yet to get past. Every now and then, others would remind me of those "bad" parts, because I knew ( deep down ) something was wrong.
And those "bad parts", I already knew from the past, because my perants, reminded me of those parts, all the time. I literally thought I was going to die and burn in Hell, because I was taught that if you don't love Jesus with all your heart, you'll be thrown into a pit of burning flames, with gnashing teeth forever.
First of all, I really didn't have a good concept of what love was or any feeling that I could pin point or relate to as love. Second, I'd listen to my mom, my sisters, and sit an observe ( in Church ) all these people who were fully invested in this idea of "accepting Jesus with all your heart "...watching them in this emotional state, singing songs, and smiling....doing their rituals, and so forth...
In the mean time, all I wanted was to get out of their as soon as possible, my mom, standing next to me with a stern look on her face ( not happy) pointing at some book ( repeatedly ) and making me "pretend" I was engaged and interested ( which I clearly was not ) and feeling forced to Love Jesus and sings songs, which I has no concept of what Love was.....so I wouldn't burn in Hell forever.
I clearly failed at this, as my mother was indicating by her disapproval...and I felt no love for Jesus at all. In my heart, I knew this was true, no matter how many times I'd stand there and "pretend" I did. I was just putting on a show for everyone else, so I could belong to the "club"....including my mother and sisters who seemed fully bought in and sincerel "on board". I may have looked like I was "on board" and "in the club" mostly for my moms sake....but my mind was elsewhere the entire time...and it was the last place I wanted to be. I hated going to church, because it was a weekly reminder of what was coming ie: burning in Hell forever with all the other "bad people"...who didn't "love Jesus with all their hearts" either.
The biggest part of that was, I simply didn't believe it ( completely )...with all my conviction. Any more, than I believed in Santa Claus...which I didn't at a very early age. Not completely convinced at least...but I wanted to. Same with Jesus.
If you think about it, if all you had to do was love Jesus with all your heart to not burn in Hell.....don't you think I'd do it? I mean, how easy is that? The problem was...I couldn't. I new in my heart iti wasn't true. I knew I couldn't do it, so I was going to Hell....I was an imposter, and was bad, and that was pointed out to me constantly all the time at home.
This, was the pervasive believe I had of myself. I was already going to Hell...so why does anything else even matter?
So to answer your question...I began to like myself, even if no one else did. I began to accept myself with my flaws and had a more defiant attitude that said: "I don't care what you say....I'm not a bad person" And:" I don't believe anything you're telling me...because I know you're wrong"
That's about where it stood at that time in my life. By that time, I liked myself pretty well....with all my flaws and the good and bad....because I had completely thrown all that "nonsense" out the window...and dismissed it as "wrong". I was "right" and they are all "wrong".
It was still, a very black and white way of seeing things. Not until later, did I start to see things differently.
Mostly because, what I was taught was in black and white...but that's not how my mind works. It's never really worked that way, which was a big part of the problem.
I've always seen things as shades of grey...so living in a black and white world...made me feel like an outcast.
That's how I felt. Like an outcast.
It's work
My 20-year marriage ended after years of me being in a similar position to yours. He knew our marriage/family was on the line, and yet still could not bring himself to address the ADHD. I could not comprehend why he'd rather lose our family than do the work... but that was the reality. It is something I wish I'd seen and accepted earlier. Looking back, I believe it was a combination of not wanting to face or admit to his own challenges and also not wanting to change. HE was happy as things were because they worked for him. I was unhappy because they didn't work for me. Change is hard work and ADHD makes it really hard to get started on things and see them through - therapy looked pretty unappealing to him. I also think he couldn't accurately see the drastic impact of his behaviours and choices on others.
In many ways, I wish I'd "let him go" earlier. When we split, he was devastated, but the life he built in the few years following made him happy. I don't think he was meant to be in a relationship at all simply because of his ways of living.
I know I'm rambling. The answer is no... It's not at all too much to ask, but it may feel like too much for him to do... and that's all that it's going to boil down to. Trust me when I say that you don't want to live your life dragging another person kicking and screaming through it. If he isn't interested in addressing the challenges in your relationship, he's giving you the information you need to make a decision.
Hi 1Melody1;
Hi 1Melody1;
Thank you for sharing your story. Why do you think your husband was devastated when you ended the marriage? Do you think he had no comprehension of the issues at hand and how much his actions and refusal to seek help were affecting you? This is something I struggle with is their lack of empathy? Is this characteristic of a person with ADHD? Or they are so involved in their bubble that they can't see past it?
I am so angry at my fiance because he wants to buy me a car but he won't use that money to go the therapy or to hire someone to help him finish his house. So my logic and his logic are completely different. We have so many things in common and that is why I love him so much. I am twice divorced and I finally met someone that we have so many things in common and this ADHD thing is killing me. And he cannot see the forest for the trees.
You mentioned that your husband was able to move on and seem to have a happy life. Why do you think that is? Did you, at any point in your marriage, begin to have pity and find it hard to make the decision to end the marriage? I know it is hard to end things when you pity the other person. I am at that point right now. To marry someone out of pity is a terrible thing as I did that with my second husband and that was a disaster. How do get past the pity for the partner who suffers with ADHD? I am really struggling with that right now.
Hi Dottie
I had been clear for many years that I didn't feel I could continue if nothing changed in our marriage so he should have seen it coming. Every conversation we ever had about it seemed to disappear from his mind the next day though. He'd continue as if nothing had happened. When I finally said I was leaving, he was still utterly shocked. Despite clear communication, I don't think he realized how bad things were and if he did, I don't think he thought I would go through with it. But I had become such a depressed shell of a person that I knew I had to get out for our child's sake. She needed one stable parent. Like you describe with your guy, my husband had an extreme lack of empathy. It wasn't intentional and he wasn't a bad person at his core... he just legitimately struggled to grasp the experiences of others. He was very self-focused. And yes, I did feel so terrible because I knew leaving was going to hurt him. I don't know if I pitied him, but I did want to take care of him... because I knew he wouldn't eat well without me, live in a clean home, maintain a strong enough connection to our daughter, etc. But those weren't my jobs to take on. That doesn't mean it wasn't hard to let go though. I had to learn to prioritize my own wellbeing.
I hear you on the love and desperation you're feeling to hold on to all the good. I really loved my husband too. He passed recently (we had been apart for about 4 years) and I am filled with all the positive memories of the early years and the major life milestones we crossed together. It is so hard to reconcile that with how our lives together turned out due to ADHD symptoms. There was so much comfort with him and we laughed together and I loved his family... but that didn't change the fact that every day was a constant disaster and he watched me burn out adulting for the both of us, crying for help while he did whatever he wanted.
I think he moved on and had a happy life because he could finally be "free" to live his ADHD way. He didn't want a job and family dinners and household responsibilities and raising a child. He wanted to spend his days on the computer, at the casino and eating takeout. That's what he did when he left and he was happy. And I was less resentful and happier too. Not because I was doing less as a single mom, but because there wasn't another person in the house that should have been supporting me with half of it.
It's hard to be where you are. Be kind to yourself as you make these big decisions.
Devastated
"Why do you think your husband was devastated when you ended the marriage?"
For me, my husband was devastated when I ended the marriage because he never thought I would leave.
I found a phrase online that describes what I experienced.
"A tolerable level of permanent unhappiness." The phrase implies that people have been taught to accept a certain level of unhappiness in long-term relationships.
My ex knew he was hurting me and didn't care.
To avoid fear and shame
An insightful member on this forum said all their ADHD partner’s decisions were made to avoid fear and shame.
Taste it. I don’t know if it makes as perfect sense to you as it did for me. But for me, it tied together decade-long confusing experiences and finally explained them.
If for other people choices are made to gain something, like friendship, success, intimacy, knowledge, adventure, beauty, for him it was all about avoiding fear and shame.
Imagine the life he must’ve had.
I believe for ADHD partners that function like mine, fear and shame obscure other thoughts and ideas that could save relationships, families and health. People like me can just stand helplessly and watch it all go down.
Fear and Shame...makes sense.
If I apply this to myself Swedish, it really does play out to exactly that.
A) I lived in fear at home from my dad, and the secondary type of abuse ( Helicopter Mom ) made life unbearable to be around sometimes. This combination, could have had a much worse effect, but I literally, stayed away as much as I could....and succeeded to do so.
B) My second father ( my swim coach ), and my friends I saw everyday ( team mates ), and my second home ( the pool )....were all in an effort to get away and avoid the fear ( my dad ) and the shame ( my mom ) to a place those didn't exist. From 1rst grade through High School...I hid out most the time. Weekends were meets as well many times.
C) The price of admission to stay there. Work your ass off....and never quit.
D) What you gained. Self esteem and self confidence...as well as innumerable other life lessons. Including....how to lose.
C) There's no way to cheat or take short cuts. The time clock never lies. There's no way to be a victim either. Quitting was not an option or face the alternative.
And you learned this lesson, every day. That's how you build resiliency. One day at at a time.....X 300 days X 12 years.
All of this....was in avoidance of fear and shame. That's exactly right. At the end of that time....what you gain, you get to keep. You own that for life because you earned it. No one can take that from you...and it can never be lost. No fear...no shame.
I totally get it now....when my therapist, at the time, said: "that saved your life." He was right about that, but it definitely was a lot of work and effort to get there.
And that pools name is ( my second home ).... House of Pain. No way around it, only through it. That's what my coach ( and second father ) taught me.
And that was my trade off.... for no fear or shame. For sure.
Not wanting therapy
For J, the avoidance of a destructive home environment as a child by attending a sports team has given him strength and resilience. It’s truly a story of hope.
I was rather thinking of ADHD partners not finishing houses or projects, choosing porn instead of partner intimacy, avoiding burning relationship issues as you’ve all described above. In those instances, I believe the logic of avoidance of fear and shame leads to not wanting therapy, defensiveness, unwillingness to discuss issues, and not following through on promises, construction work etcetera.
In my ex husband, there was an infinite need to ‘rest’ by losing track of time and space and the five person household, and not least the future, all it’s possibilities and promises, until both the present and the future were spent. He basically burrowed down in his bed and did nothing to shape life. I’m convinced he felt relieved by this. He could avoid a lot of the fear and shame of living without planning, prioritizing and executive skills, and somehow things were still quite decently arranged around him.
That was me, sad, confused and increasingly desperate, working myself to the bone for us.
Is it lack of Resiliency, Swedish?
Because, I've done what your ex has done...but I've always bounced back and "finished"...what I started.
I've done the "too many projects"...remodels, etc. But I also, usually, come back and finish.
I've done the "hide out and rest" thing too. But I also, usually, get back up and follow through.
I've made promises, and usually, kept them.
In chronologic time....it's just taken longer than I'd hoped. The biggest problem I've had...was time. Doing it in a timely manner in respect to other people and their needs.
My biggest miscalculation was not considering my own limitation and not allowing the "extra time" for other life events. I burned myself out regularly...and then having to rest and recover.
The biggest obstacle in thar equation is "pace".
I've always said this about my work which is deadline based. Living and dying by due dares.
My motto: "I can run a marathon, and I can sprint 100 meters. But I can't sprint a marathon. That's simply impossible to do"
Pace ...is the factor...that's difficult to factor.
Resilience...is the time it take to recover, to get up and do it again.
Or....how long and far you can go, at any given pace, before you have to stop and rest.
So pace and Resilience...are inextricably linked.
The only way I can survive my job, is to pace myself within my own means amd limitations. Cognitive load...decreases your energy level ( ability ) by burning the candle at both ends. Twice the flame...at half the time.
This has always been my failure, when considering my own limitations. Believing I can do more, but forgettin about pace...and overestimating my own ability.
But Resilience...is the amount of rest you need...before getting up and doing it again.
This is not negotiable...on any given day.
J
I’d say there doesn’t seem to be a lot you have in common with my ex… He’s severe ADD with several comorbidities.
What is he doing
What efforts is he making to save the relationship? One person doing all the work cannot save a relationship. Porn addiction, no friends, family estrangement are big clues that he isn't keeping his life on track in a productive way. Step back and observe his commitment to your relationship. Is he helping you row the boat or is he drilling holes while you keep the ship on course and bail at the same time? Refusing therapy is a big clue to his commitment to change. You know he won't change on his own. Stop hoping and set a boundary regarding therapy. You go if he is a no go. You cannot make him change and you need to accept that he will likely not want to. You have to decide if you want this life for one more year or 5 or 30 years, because he has already shown you he is unwilling to change.
Therapy refusal
Hi
I was with my ADHD (possibly autistic) ex husband for 18years. He threw some catasthrophic bombs on the marriage, things i could have simply chosen to walk away. Instead i started therapy to process and forgive. He watched me do that, watched me fight for the marriage, yet never offered or sought therapy himself. 7months later i asked him to go to therapy. It took him a further 9 months to go. So all in 1.5years. I was so shocked, confused and devastated it took so long. It felt like a slap in the face. He blew up the marriage, didnt offer any solutions, and refused to go counselling as "its hard for someone with ADHD" and "i wasnt clear it was a way to build trust". When he eventually attended counselling, i firmly believe its because it was free from his employer, they didnt specialise in ADHD and he eventually came to the conclusion most things were my fault. I was devastated.
Hi EllieJ;
Hi EllieJ;
I simply cannot understand why our partners won't go or put up a huge fight about going. Sometimes I think it is a pride thing. I am so angry and full of rage because my fiance won't go. Eight years we have been together and doesn't that mean anything? Yesterday I broke the engagement and 8 years seems to have just gone up in flames!! I am so angry and hurt and feel so powerless because his unfinished house from the past, at least, 12 years holds all the power over me and over the relationship. And therefore, he has has the power. But he will not use that power to go and get help to help our relationship and to help himself. I just cannot understand the logic or lack there of. Do you think your husband had a good motive of heart about going to therapy or do you feel he was simply doing it to placate you and buy himself some time and maybe you would happy even if it were for just a moment? I understand the ADHD brain but what about the heart of the ADHD partner? What are their true motives for entering into a relationship? Because at this point I don't think their motives are sincere.
So sorry
I’m so sorry your engagement is broken and you believe your ex fiancé hasn’t been sincere.
I believe the ADHD partner can often be oblivious to the pain they cause. And even when they do realize it, they forget it, or rationalize it (they focus on their own (presumed greater) pain or determine your requests are impossible for them and therefore unfair).
It’s my experience when faced with the uncomfortable truth of their own actions, and the moral implications of them, they may rather deflect blame by twisting reality than accept they’ve been treating their partner unfairly.
I think it’s dishonest. But Ive lived this myself. In the end nothing mattered more to my ex than reclaiming his self esteem. Even though he had to tie a knot on logic, humiliate and use me to accomplish it.
Hi Swedishcoast;
Hi Swedishcoast;
I had to apply what you said about the ADHD partner reclaiming their self esteem to my fiance. It made me pause and think about all the red flags in our relationship where he has deflected and even so much as denied reality to maintain his self esteem and pride and ego. For example, even though we cancelled our wedding, he came back from holiday(which was supposed to be our honeymoon) and told his coworkers that he was married and it was wonderful. Another instance, one of his coworkers was driving home and noticed that my fiance was not driving to my house so my fiance lied and told his coworker that he had a rental property in the area which is actually my fiance's residence. Many times my fiance has told people how supportive I am of his mental health but not once has he ever mentioned my mental health. He does, from time to time, ask me how I am doing but I feel it is not from a sincere heartfelt place. Even when I confronted him about the porn and how I had put a stop to sex before marriage and he seemed adamant to tell me that "what should you(me) expect me to do? We are both Christian and I was completely thrown by his statement as if he has a right to carry on while I want to do what I need to do to be led by the Lord. It's like how dare I ever suggest that he do something that is hard or painful or uncomfortable. I also want to ask you about power. Did you ever feel like you had no control or power or that any attempt to set boundaries was futile? I find myself becoming more and more angry that this disease (ADHD) and his unfinished hoarding house held ALL the power in our relationship. I tried my best to speak gently and honestly and encouragingly that I would help him, that therapy would do us so much good, that I am in your corner, I am your rock. It all seemed to fall on deaf ears. I just cannot reconcile the fact that a man asks a woman to marry him but then tells her that he cannot promise her anything. My heart just sank when he told me that last year. So what I am hearing is that all my wishes and goals for trying to get this man I love to go to therapy and get some serious help all comes down to "I can't promise you anything". This disease of ADHD almost is like an addiction!!!! There are so many layers that I cannot keep up!!! It is so paradoxical!! They want all the wonderful things that a relationship brings but then faced with the reality of it, they cannot preserve the sanctity and precious life that is so afforded them due to whatever it may be...pride, ego, shame, guilt, pain, self preservation, denial!!! I am so angry!!!!
Power
You asked did I feel powerless in the relationship? Yes, but not in an outward sense. It looked like I was the dominant one, having things my way, but in reality I was forced to single-handedly make all choices for a good life for the five of us. I never wanted this. I wanted discussion, preferences stated, compromises.
ADHD does make a non-partner powerless. It’s a very accurate observation. You can’t make it change. You can’t make your partner see your needs if it challenges their capacity too much. So you come to feel your emotions and needs are unimportant, and find that you will be yelled at for stating them.
That your ex fiancé lies to coworkers to hide his failure to get married is very unattractive and puts you in a ridiculous position. That he refuses to meet your emotional needs is unacceptable in my opinion.
It seems unlikely that he’d make changes to the status quo. He wouldn’t leave you, since you’re convenient. He wouldn’t listen. He’d go on wasting your time until you ended it.
8 years is a long time, I’d suggest you don’t spend more time on this. You don’t want to be angry in future, you want to find a happy relationship and marriage, why not with somebody else? Since there are no children, you can probably get out of this in one piece and quickly start rebuilding your life. Once out, you’ll regain power.
You have my sympathy.
Fear, shame, ADHD, blameshifting
In my experience they will put up a huge fight to get us, but not to keep us. When we eventually loose patience and tire of being treated like garbage, they get defensive, insular and blameshift. I initually put this down to narcissism but i dont think thats it. I think its an ingrained ADHD entitlement. They would rather we put the effort in, because guess what.....thats how its always been. So why now do they have to do enormous work when they stopped doing the little efforts? In my experience, they dont. My ex frequently said about therapy that i sought therapy when i needed it, he sought it when he needed it. That it was unreasonable and perhaps controlling to ask him to go. But it took him 1.5years to go, from when i started therapy. That was too lomg and showed me he was happy for me to fight alone. I was alone. Whenever i say to him, he just needed to pick up the phone and get an appointment to show effort to save the marriage......that simple.....all i get is "in your opinion". He put more effort into finding and buying a new house, finding a new job, renovating the house.......than making that one simple phone call ffrom the comfort of his sofa. That is devastating to me. In my opinion he went to therapy because he was underperforming at work due to the marriage breakdown, and his employer paid.
Please seek therapy. These relationships arent typical. They are full of love bombing, lack of attention for you, wreckless behaviour, comfusing behaviour, blameshifting and ever so subtle gaslighting. I dont think they mean to do it but they do. In my humble opinion these relationships get worse, be glad marriage and kids is off the table with him. It gets worse when the relationship and family progress, as the ADHD person cant cope with the pressures of kids/work/sustaining the relationship. You will do all the work.
It's the Matrix Eliej
Something you said caught my eye Eliej, so bear with me because I have a few things to say. I'm obviously not the "they" you're referring to but I also have ADHD. I'm not, because I've been to therapy and stayed with it for 15 years. I'm now, continuing my education because learning is a lifelong process. It never ends...and there's never such a thing as too much learning in that respect.
So, how am I, not the "they", but have ADHD both at the same time? What's the difference? The difference is therapy and a willingness to look at the train wreck and see the dead bodies, you might say. Its a willingness and wanting to know, even if it's painful and uncomfortable and causes you to feel and see things that are uncomfortable.
In the movie the Matrix, Neo has the choice to take either the red pill or the blue pill. I copied this explanation off the internet:
"In the context of the movie "The Matrix," choosing a "red pill" means accepting a potentially unsettling truth and waking up to reality, while choosing a "blue pill" means staying in blissful ignorance of the truth, essentially choosing to remain in a comfortable illusion; the red pill represents the choice to see the world as it truly is, while the blue pill represents staying in a fabricated reality."
Exactly. Going to therapy is like taking the red pill, and seeing yourself as you really are...the good and the bad...or at least, the parts that are painful to see.
When you said insular...that caught my eye.
"mid 16th century (as a noun denoting an islander): from late Latin insularis, from insula ‘island’."
and
ignorant of or uninterested in cultures, ideas, or peoples outside one's own experience.
"a stubbornly insular farming people".
This is exactly right. Staying in ignorant bliss, intentionally, so as not to see the train wreck.
And if you don't think I haven't researched narcissism and borderline as a possibility to explain this, then you don't know me very well.
But last night, my SO had a, semi, open talk about her feelings of us not being a good match and she honestly said that she's had thoughts about us breaking up. This ended in what amounted to an ultimatum but not exactly. What it boiled down to was her, using some key words and explaining, openly, that she didn't want to talk about "feelings" because it made her depressed. She didn't want hear about my progress or new discoveries I've made in therapy ( and on my own ) didn't want to talk about issues or conflicts we have, but especially feelings. Specifically. As she put it" I've never been with anyone who wants to talk about their feeling so much...it's depressing, it's drama, it's chaos!" I can't live this way...is what she said. She went on to say, she just want me to do my thing, her do hers...and doesn't want to hear about any of this feeling stuff and therapy...because it's depressing...and chaos.
Chaos is a big theme with her. Everything is chaos ...but I'm really not seeing it? Talking about therapy and feelings and resolving issues between the two of us is chaos to her.
When you look at Borderline personality disorder....splitting is a big part of it. Splitting is when....that person's inner self loathing, gets projected onto someone else. It's all those unwanted negative feelings about themselves they don't want to look at. So, that gets shoved off onto the person who's making them feel that way. The person who's trying to make them look at the train wreck....that they don't want to see.
I think the word insular describes this perfectly....remaining ignorant and uninterested....in looking at the train wreck, that is themselves. Intentionally.
And I'm not even sure that my SO is even BPD...it's possible, but I'm not so sure? I think this same defence mechanism ( the splitting ) could be possible in other disorders too. It would serve the same purpose and be equivalent to taking the blue pill.
"You take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.".
I remember talking to my oldest sister once, and explaining what I learned in therapy about introverts and extroverts. She's very intelligent ( extremely so ) and is a voracious reader. She's also an extreme introvert which is quite obvious and apprent to everyone. Especially to myself and my other sister who are much more extroverted than her.
Later, she told me she read an entire book on the subject of introverts and decided it fit her very well. She was comfortable with that explanation. When I suggested she go to therapy to learn more she said" no no no...I'm good...that's all I need to know" quote
She's also comfortable with taking the blue pill...where I'm a red pill kind of guy.
Why am I this way? I don't know? But that doesn't really matter. All I know is....I'm a red pill guy...and my SO is a blue pill lady. If she doesn't want to talk about "feelings" and it makes her depressed and causes her to feel chaos ( inside her head ) ...then so be it. That's her choice...I don't need to share it with her.
That's what the ultimatum boiled down to....."stop sharing all this stuff with me, I don't want to hear it. Especially about feelings....it's "chaos" and "drama".
I told her: "okay. You watch painting videos that end up boring me to death. I can't watch them as much as you , and become very uninterested after a while. I get tired of talking about painting which is mostly...all you want to talk about.
I find this all stuff fascinating and I'm really interested. But I don't need to talk about it with you if all it does is depress you."
Nothing will ever get resolved ...but it will keep the peace. And we both want peace...so we do share that in common.
What I said in therapy recently is true. I feel like, I'm having to manage her feelings for her....because my actions will determine whether she's angry or not. So, in order for her not to be angry....I do things to keep the peace...for that reason only.
Yet, she accuses me of having anger issues....but she's not doing anything about hers. Going to therapy would help fix that problem for her....but she's not "interested".
Because she's a blue pill kind of woman, an "island" unto herself.
Just like my sister. They share that in common.