Forum topic: ADHD and Risk Taking

Tue Mar 4th, 2008 - 4:00am by speechie

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My husband and I have been married for 13 years and he was diagnosed last summer with adult ADHD. He said he first noticed his ADHD in second grade. Ever since I have known him he has always taken risks. I never realized how much it would bother me until it became a financial burden to our family. I dealt with it much better before we had kids, but now it is getting out of control. He has always wanted to have his own business. I can't even tell you how many different business ventures he has tried. He claimed bankruptcy the second year we were married for a business that failed. Here we are several failed businesses later and he still wants to take out loans to start up new businesses. I say businesses because it is never just one at a time. He currently has 3 or 4 ideas for businesses he wants to pursue. Last spring he took out a line of credit without even talking to me. The only reason I know this is because he left a receipt for an auction item that he purchased using this line of credit. When I confronted him he told me he took out a loan to buy things to fix up and resell. He has now spent $6,000 on businesses he wants to pursue with no returns. This is extremely frustrating to me since I am the one paying all the bills. The thing that is even more frustrating is that he took out the loan behind my back. He tells me not to worry about it and it has nothing to do with me since it's in his name. I am constantly telling him that everything he does not only affects him, but also our family. He plans on starting one of the businesses this summer while I am home with the kids. He told me he doesn't even expect to break even, but he will be able to pay part of the loan back. When I tell him that I am not comfortable with him taking loans, he goes ahead and does it anyway. He says that I am "risk adverse" and he is not going to change. The only reason he has been able to take these risks is because I have had the steady job. I am becoming extremely resentful for always having to be the responsible one. He has never even acknowledged or thanked me for the opportunities he's been given to pursue all these ventures while I'm the one paying the bills.

Comments

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 - 12:26pm

Let me address a number of things that you mention here, in no particular order.

First, willingness to take risks is, indeed, one of the characteristics of people with ADD - it is one of the reasons why they often make terrific entrepreneurs, firefighters and policemen.  That said, your own situation seems to be a recipe for problems not because he takes risk, but because your tolerance for risk has lessened since you had your children.  There are two people in any marriage and the success of the relationship is a complicated dance between what each person does and how the other person feels about it.

From a technical point of view, you may wish to talk with a lawyer in your state to get a better understanding to what degree you are responsible for your spouse's debt within given parameters (for example, if he incorporates as a sub-chapter S corporation, would this insulate your family from his business debt in any way?  In his case, it does sound as if his debt is business related, not personal.)  If you do find a way where his business expenses can be his own responsibility, you may wish to suggest he take responsibility for his own financial well-being.  Hopefully, this would allow you to distance yourself from your fear of financial ruin and instability enough so that you could start to once again enjoy being with him more (as you did before you had kids, when he was, presumably, just as interested in taking risks but they affected you less).

The taking out of the loan behind your back is just as worrying as his taking out the loans at all.  Was this premeditated or impulsive?  If the former, then you are in a situation (understandably) where you have become an authoritarian figure to him who is to be avoided/lied to.  This means that other parts of your relationship may also be weaker than you are understanding or at least writing about.  You may wish to explore what these are (I'm guessing, for example, that you no longer trust him and, also, that he no longer feels safe with you) with the help of a professional counsellor.  You don't want to dump on each other.  Rather, you want to identify the issues that are getting in your way as a couple and address them with a positively developed plan.

Your husband likely has a number of strengths that he could use to more productively support your family.  He may love the excitement of the new start-up and the energy inherent in a start up, for example.  He may be addicted to the thrill he feels.  He may like tinkering with things (fixing them).  Encourage him to identify what it is he likes about his start ups (freedom? no boss?  the thrill of risk? the conceptual nature of what he is doing?  working with his hands? the environment of auctions?)  Try to do this without condemning what he has been doing, but rather as a way to figure out how to take his strengths - the things he loves to do - and channel them into something will be both exciting to him AND pay the bills.  If he finds something he really loves AND makes money at it he will gain greater freedom to take the risks he so enjoys.  If he loves finding new things and going to auctions, maybe he can work locating rare sports memorabilia for a sports auction house.  If he loves the thrill of risk, maybe he can start a sport that fulfills that need in a way that diminishes his need for it in the workplace and thus find a job that provides greater financial security.

The most important thing to remember is that your husband has this need for risk built into him.  He won't be able (or want) to change that, but he may be able to channel it into something that earns him more money and puts you more at ease.  That process of channeling his skills takes effort and encouragement from you, so try your hardest to support him and not fall into the trap of creating a place that isn't safe for him to be him.  He's already shown you that if you do this he'll just lie to you and ignore your needs.  This is a very human response - one that you might also have were you in a position where you felt someone was unfairly sticking their nose into your business.

Life runs in phases - right now the two of you are at a time in your lives when you feel it is harder to take risks because you want to have a roof over your heads to protect your children.  Some day he may be able to take more risks again, just as he did before you had kids, and you'll feel more at ease with it.

Your husband isn't the only person with issues that need to be addressed.  Your note suggests that you have developed a well of resentment at your husband's behavior that has created a barrier between you.  This is completely understandable - I would feel the exact same feelings.  But while it is understandable, it isn't healthy for your relationship.  Feelings of resentment and anger communicate themselves non-verbally (in the choices you make about your interactions, as well as your body language) and need to be dealt with rather than ignored or justified.  If they aren't dealth with you will move further and further into the kind of downward spiral that too many marriages suffer, and you will deepen the fight between you that has already begun.

You have, in fact, changed the rules of your relationship (it was okay for him to take risks before the kids, but not now) - he likely resents that shift, too.  See if you can find it in yourself to accept him as he is - as imperfect as the next person.  You will find your relationship healthier, your own tension diminished, and his attitude improved.

Melissa Orlov

Submitted by speechie on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 - 4:07pm

Hi Melissa, Thank you for taking the time to respond to my note. My husband and I have been going to a counselor separately since he was diagnosed this past summer. We will be meeting as a couple for the first time this month. It will be extremely helpful to discuss several points you made. I do understand that many ADHD adults tend to be risk takers and I feel that some risk is okay. You're right, we are at a different phase in our lives where I feel it is more difficult to take risks. The reality is we have two children to protect and with that comes added responsibilities. The rules have changed and I do expect him to contribute financially. I feel like it's finally time for him to step up to the plate and get a job to help pay the bills. I have to give him some finacial responsibility or he will just take it for granted that I will handle it. The more freedom I give him the greater the risks. The loans get bigger, the projects get bigger and he spends less and less time at home. I do know from all the books I have read on ADHD that patterns like this have to stop before they spiral out of control. I am not saying that he can no longer take risks ( I know he will anyway). I am just feeling like now is not the time. I want to work toward a balance of having him be more financially stable while he gets that rush from somewhere other than the work place. I do need to talk to a lawyer to determine if his business is set up so that it will not affect our nest egg. I have talked to my husband before about meeting with a lawyer together so that I can feel more comfortable about it. He became really defensive and said "I don't ask to come to your meetings at work." I think I will go on my own if I have to. I am not sure if the sneaking behind my back to get loans is premeditated or impulsive. I would say the auction purchase was impulsive, but i'm thinking the loan was premeditated. You may be right when you say I have become the authoritarian figure. He probably feels it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. As far as the anger and resentment issues, I do realize I have to work on these. I don't like feeling this way. I think I just get so overwhelmed with responsibilities of financials, household, kids etc... I often feel like there is no balance and sharing responsibility when he is off doing his projects. I am also fearful of losing everything if he continues to take risks. This is where my insecurities lie. Time management and organization are issues I would like him to work on. He has so many projects going on at once, he often does not complete them and it costs us money in the end. I feel that time away from family needs to be productive. He missed out on our sons first year of life because he was traveling weeks at a time doing three different projects. These projects were never completed and he ended up dissolving the business. It would have been a lot easier to accept his absence if he was getting paid for his time. It's just so ironic because his favorite saying is "time is money". I feel meds would help him organize his time more efficiently. He has already gone to a doc on his own for meds. He tried Straterra for two weeks and then went back to ask for Concerta soon after. He didn't try Concerta very long either because he left almost a full bottle behind while he was traveling. He said he quit taking them because he didn't like how they made him feel. I was happy that he made the choice to go to the doc on his own, but I wish he would have given them a chance to work. When I asked him if he would try them again, he called me a "pill pusher." I only asked him once and this is how he responded. Right now he is willing to go as a couple to the counselor, but still wants me to also go on my own. I am thankful for that. I guess we will take it one step at a time. Thanks so very much for your time.

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Thu Mar 6th, 2008 - 1:29pm

Lots of promising things in your note.

First, as far as meds go, your husband will know pretty quickly whether or not a given medication is going to "feel bad" or not.  My husband knew within hours that Concerta wouldn't work for him and it sounds as if your husband had the same experience.  However, that doesn't mean a different med wouldn't be fine.  (Strattera seems to have a lower rate of effectiveness than some of the others, though some people like it a lot.)  Anyway, you may wish to talk about WHY the meds are important to you (the underlying issue isn't the meds, it's other issues about organization and household tasks, etc.)  There are anti-depressants, such as Wellbutrin that many who don't tolerate stimulants like.  There are also others...or there are non-medicinal ways to treat ADD symptoms - exercise, nutrition, qEEG (neurofeedback), and more.  What you are trying to acheive is his participation -THAT he gets there is critically important to the health of your relationship.  HOW he gets there is his choice.  And what THERE looks like is a joint conversation - not just your choice alone.

The issue, most likely, is that you would like him to come to the marriage as a partner, rather than be off doing his own thing.  THAT's why you are interested in treatment.  But let him pick how to come to become that partner (maybe he can just do it by willpower, but given he has ADD that's the absolutely hardest possible route he could pick).  He may well get to medications if they are de-politicized in his mind as eventually about 70-80% of patients find that this is the most effective way to start treatment.  You should know, however, that studies show that medication alone isn't very effective.  The medication is simply a way to manage some basic symptoms (like lack of focus or inability to initiate tasks) and then the person taking the meds then has to work to create support systems such as leaving reminder notes, using a calendar, etc.

You can't pick what it is that he will work on, though you can give him information about what it is that will make you happiest and implant the idea that the happier you are, the easier his life will be.  But be careful not to step over the line into "running" him - because that way lies real marital distress (you think you're distressed now - just wait a while and move into "I'm going to run your life and make your choices for you" mode!)

My personal opinion is that you don't need to take him to the lawyer - you need to find out for your own comfort what the options are for your family.  You shouldn't hide from him that you are going to find out some of this information, certainly, and you can invite him to join you...but don't be uneducated about your family's options just because there is friction between the two of you on the topic of what he does for a living.  Once you've gotten some ideas (note I don't call them answers), then you can talk with him about them.  Make sure to find out what, if any, your options are if your husband refuses to change the legal structure of his business (as this sounds as if it might be a possibility).

I would urge you to talk with your counsellor before your first joint meeting about your counsellor's opinions about ADHD.  (Some discredit it, others don't).  My feeling is that the most effective counselling with people who have ADD is that which focuses primarily in the present and future.  As soon as you start digging around in the past the person with ADHD can feel attacked and become immensely unwilling to partner with you to find creative solutions.  "Creative" is key here...as is being empathetic with the ADD issues.  It's way, way too easy to say "if you would just pay better attention" or "if you would just change what you are doing" and not take into account that there are ALWAYS two of you in this story - your responses to him are just as important in how your relationship is going as are his.  (A good example - if you suddenly decided that what he was doing for business was not only okay with you but really exciting and wonderful, most of your current problems would disappear without his having to do a thing.)

So, talk with your counsellor and see if he/she is comfortable trying to keep the conversations in the present and focused on joint problem solving, rather than digging around at the roots of the behaviors and in your joint pasts.

I agree that you are in a situation where he is being insensitive to the greater needs of your family, as well as your physical and mental ability to essentially do everything for them (care for home and kids, make the money, etc.)  This is a very typical pattern for ADD marriages and the result, if it is not stopped, is that the non-ADD spouse gets more and more resentful and less and less able to handle the workload...and the marriage ends up in really big trouble.  You are right to work on it now, and you will be most successful if you push your current resentment aside and work with him and the counsellor in an open, accepting, "in the present" way.  The ADD isn't the issue here (i.e. there isn't anything wrong with him) - the issue is that you are in a point in your lives when you need more stability...so work together to figure out how to create that.  If he disagrees with you on the underlying principle (that you need more stability) then you have much bigger problems than his ADD symptoms.

Best of luck to you, and feel free to post any additional questions.

Melissa Orlov

Submitted by Diana (not verified) on Sat Mar 15th, 2008 - 5:03pm

Hey Speechie, I am like you, I constantly worry about what my husband will do that will affect my credit and future because he gives me constant reason to do so. I have already been down a rough financial road where business debt has negativly affected our personal lives. It wasn't pretty and pretty devastating. We still haven't recovered. I agree talking to a lawyer to get advice is needed. Keep in mind that even if a company has it's own entity like an LLC, a Corporation or a Sub Chapter S, the businesses owners still have to be careful constantly to read closely all of the contracts with suppliers or financial institutions when applying for credit and even some other contract arrangements to avoid signing a personal guarantee for the debt. If your husband gets personal credit in his name only then I don't think that the financial institution can place anything against your credit rating good or bad but if he were to default, then the debt could end up as a judgement against him. If you have property in both of your names, then the judgement could apply as a lien against that property. Usually it applies toward real property such as real estate or land, etc. depending on the situation. So, I am trying to get my assets in my name only. I was planning to try to legally (with the help of a lawyer) to get completely separated from him financially while married but now, I am looking more toward divorce. But even with a divorce, a financial institution doesn't care about who is responsible for what, they look at who is on the loan and will still go after all parties to the loan. I am tired of watching every move he makes and trying to mop up behind his financial messes. He needs to be own his own and suffer his own consequences without hurting me for now on. I know I sound so harsh and I'm really not a mean person. I am just so resentful, hurt and beaten down that I feel like it's turned me into someone else in a way. I never thought that when we fell in love over 30 years ago that I would feel this way and be in this horrible financial situation in my 50's. I hope you can work something out Speechie, we all deserve to live with peace of mind.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon Mar 17th, 2008 - 11:30am

Hi again Diana, Thanks for your response back. You mentioned in your note that you were orginally going to see how to stay married, but keep finances separate. That's where I'm at right now. I'm just wondering what type of lawyer to go to. Do you happen to know? I want to be sure he is solely responsible for his loans if he cannot pay them. I tried to file our taxes separately one year so his business wouldn't interfere with personal. I ended up in a higher tax bracket by filing separate so that didn't work. If I'm going to spend the money on a lawyer, it has to be the right one. Any suggestions?

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue Mar 18th, 2008 - 6:43pm

I think I would try to find a business lawyer who has good knowledge and experience in tax law and also in personal financial planning. Most of the larger firms have attorneys that specialize in those areas and you can search for them on the computer and read their bios. Good luck with finding a good one. Attorneys don't necessarily take into consideration how much it will cost us later in taxes before they draw up a contract. Sometimes they will tell you to ask an accountant. I wonder too how the spouse's assets are affected if they inherit the business. You might want to have a first consultation with several. The usually don't charge for the first visit and then choose which one to use. And you can get alot of good information in those visits too. I'm having to watch my husband very closely right now to make sure that he doesn't add my name to anything financial by just not thinking about the consequences. He is biting at the bit to get another credit card or a line of credit. And he is out now getting materials from a supplier on credit in our company name........(sigh)....I so dread all of the legal issues that I am about to face.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat Mar 15th, 2008 - 9:28am

i am 53 years old and in my second marriage. i was diagnosed at age 48 and take adderal and wellbutrin. i have been married for 1 year and find that i am not only feeling the same emotions referred to above, but it seems to have triggered some very old habits. for as long as i can remember, maybe the last 30 years, i have been terrible with money, but never willing to relinquish control. so much so that i have a habit of continually bouncing checks, without regard for the consequences. i have always had an issue with the female figure in my life having an authoritarian role; adding pressure telling me what has to be paid. it is not as if i don't have the money, i make a very good living, but i manage it poorly. i have tried everything; i have set up systems that i circumvent constantly. the only thing i have not tried, is having all my bills go to a trusted attorney who i make responsible for all my financial matters. i have to do something because this is wrecking my marriage once again. signed caddymaster

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 - 2:57pm

Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here for the competent women in the world, and I'm willing to admit right up front that you should decide whether my advice feels right to you before acting on it.  Last thing I want to do is put your wife in an impossible situation!

If your financial adviser sells financial instruments, they have a vested interest in making money - YOUR money.  (Trust me on this, I've been on the inside of this world.)  Even if he doesn't sell instruments, you'll still pay for his time.  You might consider deciding that marital stability is more important than your fear of strong women and give your wife a shot at it.  (Or you might decide that you can't possibly do this and feel easy about it, in which case you should get a financial manager immediately and stop bouncing checks.  And while you're at it, ask your wife if there are any services that she needs that will make her life easier with you - for example cleaning services or a personal trainer.  It sounds as if you have the resources, and she will appreciate the thoughtfulness.)

So if you think you might be able to hand over your money to a woman, ask your spouse if she would be willing to take over the finances in a competent, non-threatening way, and if she would be willing to organize a report for you at the end of the month to illustrate what has been happening with the money.  If she is willing, suggest that she also do a report for the month before you turned over the finances to be in her care.  What you may see, if you are as bad with money as you say you are, is that having her manage the money is a good financial decision.  No more fees for bounced checks, no advisor services fees or pressure to purchase financial instruments in a down market, either.

Either way, you've got the financial means to take care of this problem.  Don't let it ruin your marriage!!!

Melissa Orlov